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A poster on VQ made a point about this today.
After Barry Switzer left OU (after 16 years) for the Cowboys job...They had a string of 3 unsuccessful head coaches from 1990-1999 (Gary Gibbs, Howard Schnellenberger and John Blake. From 1995-1998 they went 5-5-1, 3-8, 4-8 and 5-6. After striking out with the big names they had already hired (Shnellenberger had won a National Championship at Miami), they hired the 38 year old Bob Stoops and went out and signed a Junior college QB that went on to be runner-up for the Heisman. They went 7-5 his first year, and 13-0 the next season, winning the National Championship
Now, most of you will say "but that wasn't in the SEC." However, you'd be wrong...the BIG 12 was the SEC at that time. Nebraska, Texas, Colorado, Kansas State and Texas A&M were all elite teams at the time. OU had to beat 3 Top 5 teams to win the conference and finally play for a national championship; where they held FSU to 3 points. They actually started the season ranked 18th based on the strength of that previous 7-5 finish.
Their Schnellenberger/Blake situation was actually very similar to Kiffin/Dooley. Schnellenberger, who angered a lot of OU guys because he didn't respect the tradition, thought he was bigger than the program and resigned after one season (Kiffin). Blake was a good recruiter, but a terrible in-game head coach (Dooley). It took the Sooners a few years, but with the right coach (Stoops), they got back to the top in almost no time.
Alabama of course is a similar story, only one that led to Saban, which at this point just isn't fair any more. But the point is...those of you who think a 7-5 season won't start a major turn-around for this program need to think about what Oklahoma went through before Stoops got there in 99.
I believe in Butch.
"What did he do? All he did was score!" - John Ward
Good comparison.I think CBJ is gonna get it done. +1.
Trample the Weak-Hurdle the Dead
im pretty sure Stoops didnt lose his entire offensive line in year 2 though. We will also lose Neal, and a handful of significant contributers on defense - McCullers, Couch, Hood, Smith, Miller etc..So 2014 figures to be as difficult, if not more so, than 2013. If there is a turn around coming, it will happen a bit more slowly for us, and it will have to start by outrecruiting the SEC competition.
Wouldn't it really start with out coaching the SEC? Most recruits want to see the W's before they commit and in order to get the wins we will need to out coach some teams, JMO.
The journey to becoming an Ironman
Outrecruiting Bama, UF, LSU, and UGA is basically impossible in our situation. Recruits want to win now, and are not as concerned with being a part of something, i.e. operation program turnaround.
The start of our turnaround has to be wins. Like OP said, if we can just grind out a winning record with a possible bowl win, then recruits will start to take a little notice. Recruits want to come to UT. That is evident. If not, then 4 or 5* recruits would not even be sniffing around.
UT has to give them a reason to sign. Hopeful ambitions and past glory can only get you so far. It's hard to sell something that has a recent history of imploding, i.e. RCA televisions.
If UT can show evidence (wins) that it is on the rise, then recruits will hop on the wagon. Gameday victories have to come before signing day victories. And all it will take is a winning record with an upset to boot, and we will be well on our way.
But yes, 2014 might be a rough year.
1 Corinthians 16:13 Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
Great stuff . Im all in . Refill the kool-aid ,lower the orange glasses. But seriously it does sound like us. now if only CBJ can duplicate Stoops results.
i think you and i agree. OP was comparing our plight to that of what Stoops did at OK - going 7-5 in his first year and then 13-0 with a NC in his second year. The point of my post was to indicate as you just have, that in our current predicament, we arent going to be outrecruiting bama, lsu, UF etc.. So it's going to be hard to gain on them. We just finished 10th in recruiting in the league this year, we lose our entire offensive line after next year, along with the various other players i mentioned in my post. Thus, our situation is MUCH different than what Stoops inherited at OK. We arent going to win a NC in our second year. 2014 will be very tough for us, i dont care if Bill Belichick is our coach. Thus changes, IF they are a'comin, will happen slowly. We cant and should not expect a Stoops like turnaround for us.
IF we can get to 7-5 next year, can CBJ convince recruits that we are "on our way back"? Can we make headway in the recruiting battles against our SEC competition next year? What happens then in 2014? Do we build on our improvement, or because of our player losses, do we tread water, or worse, lose momentum? These are the things that will determine our immediate destiny. And for every Stoops like turnaround, there are two dozen other coaches in the same boat who dont get it done and get fired three years later..
Well, sure, i suppose. But in these league, where you essentially have a coaching HOF at half the schools, that's asking a LOT.. Let's face it, this is not a league where coaches who are weak x and o guys survive. So the ability to "out coach" another team is really limited. The bottom line is the teams that win, have the most talent. By and large, you dont outscheme people in the SEC, you beat them because you have better players. You think bama beats people on "scheme"? nope. Their players are better, bigger, stronger and faster, so they just line up and beat you. Same thing we used to do. Look at Texas A&M - how successful is that "scheme" without Manziel? How successful is Auburn's scheme without Cam Newton? - we found out last year, not very good. And it's not like CBJ has a scheme that is exclusive to him and no one has an answer for it on offense or defense. If that were true, he would never have had a losing season. But he has. Why? Cause his players werent that good.
great players make great coaches. it begins and ends with getting better recruits. and getting better players to buy in to our program is where CBJ has to excel, even in the face of less than optimal results on the field.
This post was edited by frostyvol 14 months ago
I was questioning only this statement: "...it will have to start by outrecruiting the SEC competition".
I agree with the remainder of your original post, and the entirety of the post above.
Overall, we have no idea what is going to happen in 2014. All we know is that we are going to lose some key players in key positions. If CBJ can coach up the younger guys, snag a couple JUCO's, and maybe even sign some big recruits who can help us right away, then there might not even be a drop off. Time will tell.
But yes, it is going to take time. 2015 will be the year for us to really make a push. As long as we can weather the storm of 2014, then we should be just fine.
I agree completely. I think it takes a certain type of coach and staff to take a big, traditional program like UT at this point in its history, and concoct a turnaround. Stoops did it at Oklahoma, Tressel did it at OSU, and on and on. What do those coaches have? The ability to recruit, even under difficult historical circumstances. Can CBJ do that? I dont know. I think getting a class that was ranked in the top 25 this year was certainly acceptable given the time constraints, but next year will be a much better barometer. What i dont know, and what i think everyone is fretting over is, just how successful do we have to be on the field next year to improve our recruiting stature? 7 wins? 8 wins? 6 wins? Again, i dont know. What i do know is that irrespective of how many wins we have, CBJ needs to find a way to sell recruits on the idea that this program is the place to be. I dont know how he does it, but that's why he is getting paid 3 million a year and im not. If he cant find a way to get us at or near the top 10 in recruiting, then we are not going to see better results on the field, which will likely lead to the same downward vicious cycle we saw with Dooley.
I agree to an extent, but to completely take the coaching element out of the equation is just crazy.
With a better in-game coach, we would have beaten UGA, MSU, USCe, and Mizz. That would have brung us to 9-3. With a terrible, terrible defense ! And we might have beaten UF as well. That's 10-2 !
We do not have to beat Bama, LSU, UF, and UGA right now to become relevant again. We have to beat Vandy, USCe, Kentucky, and Mizzou. If we can beat those guys, which is entirely conceivable, then we will be climbing the ladder. If we can seperate ourselves from the bottom of the East we will be well on our way. But we have to win the winnable games first. An upset is just icing on the cake at this point. Once we validate ourselves as actual contenders for the East, then and only then will we be able to get close to out recruiting UF and UGA.
Frosty, my point was not to suggest that we will win the National Championship in 2014. I understand the personnel losses that we will incur after this season; our OL, DL, and LBs in 2014 are going to be extremely young and inexperienced. I agree with your assessment here; it's going to take a while before we are playing at an LSU or Bama or Georgia level. My point was to suggest that if we can get 7 wins or, by some miracle 8 in 2013, I think it will significantly expedite our rebirth. My reasoning for that is, like DownTheField said, there are a number of big-time recruits that have wanted to or want to come to Tennessee, but were or are afraid to because of our lack of winning. (see, Vonn Bell, Jalen Hurd, Gabe Wright, etc) If we can show enough progress in 2013 (winning 7 or 8 games, at least getting to a bowl) then our 2014 class could explode; if you don't believe me, look at what Ole Miss did on Signing Day this season. Tennessee, if we win enough games in 2013, could end up being the Ole Miss of the 2014 recruiting class. If that happens, then we start to get some momentum behind us.
Are we gonna go 12-0 in 2014? No way. No chance. BUT, who's to say that a team in it's second season under a competent coaching staff (with an offense that, albeit weak at OL, is going to have as many talented skill players as any other team in the country; as well as a defense that, while inexperienced, will overall be well talented and above all...FAST) can't at least make a bowl game? Again, progress...two bowls in row (something we would have scoffed at 10 years ago) would be marked progress in my opinion. Subsequently, add another good to great 2015 recruiting class, and then we're rolling again.
Again: I do not think we will win the NC in 2014...at all. I'm just suggesting that we don't have to sit here and say "well, this is at least a 4,5,6 year rebuild blah blah blah..." because it doesn't necessarily have to be. I choose to remain positive. I think 2015 is going to be the big year. 2013 though, IMO,will lay the foundation for that.
Like DownTheField, I agreed with everything you said and say now except for the whole out recruiting other teams. I was just stating that several recruits, like last year, expressed the desire to see Tennessee win. In order to produce those wins we will have to out coach a couple teams this year. I know it will be difficult, but we seem to be in good hands, I hope. Also getting blown out can't happen as that makes us look silly and unfavorable in the eyes of recruits. This is an important year for Tennessee to get back on the map.
it sounds like we are all on the same page, or at least reading the same book. I do think there is an "it" factor that some coaches have that can be a variable when it comes to achieving success. I.e., there are some coaches who can recruit at an elite level even against a backdrop of limited success. Coaches who can "sell snowballs to eskimoes" for lack of a better analogy. People like Saban, Urban Meyer, who could go to any school with any record and recruit and do well.
Im not sure CBJ is one of those coaches, but he might need to be if we cant at least get to 7 wins next year. IF we can get to 7, which i think would be a successful season, then we will i think really get a true determination of what CBJ will be here with next year's class. With a 7 win season, he should be able to sell recruits on the fact that our program is advancing and we are on the rise, and if he is the recruiter we need him to be, that means getting a class in the top 10. Top 20 classes, even top 15 classes in this league just mean you are treading water. If we get to a 7 win season, no reason for us not to make headway in the recruiting wars and start passing our SEC competition. I think that's a reasonable expectation for us given our tradition and facilities and what we are paying CBJ and his staff. Agree?
I agree with this post because the recruits want to see the progress. We had ALL the talent in the world this past year to have beaten EVERYONE on our schedule except for bama. In every other loss i say we were out-coached and by November we imploded on MZZou and esp. Vandy.
I would add that IF the recruits see marked improvement on the coaching front, along with scheme, player development and effort + those relationships with the coaches, we will get several big fish, even if we only win 6 or 7 games. The W's are vital, but there is so much more the recruits "see" and if bUTch is the real deal, then the recruits will smell his cookin from miles around and want to be part of it.
This post was edited by latinvol 14 months ago
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