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There is an article on ESPN right now that lists the "nations five recruiting underachievers". Basically, which teams did the least with the most talent over the last several years. UT is ranked 4th behind Cal, UCLA, and Ole Miss.
However, the interesting part of it was that it said that CBJ was 10-1 against teams when he had more talent and 10-13 when he had a talent disadvantage. Now, I don't know how they figured all of this out but if he wins all his games that he is more talented than and half the ones he has less talent than....we will be very happy this year.
For example, we would win Austin Peay, WKU, South Alabama, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, and Missouri. We would essentially split the other 6 games (2.6 wins by percentage) and finish at 9-3 or 8-4. I am assuming that Georgia, USC, Florida, Alabama, Oregon, and Auburn have had better recruiting classes than we have over the last several years.
Sounds like we might have a coach and staff who can coach the boys up a little!!!
This post was edited by Seanbt 17 months ago
Cincinnati........Tennessee big difference in the con. ,but one thing is for sure butch is far way better coach then dooley could ever dream to be more on a recruits level then dooley. Butch jones will be a heck of a coach after he works into this system with the local schools he knows what he is doing.
Watch ya know about dem Miami Boyzzz!!!
"Count it down with me. Five, four, three, two, one.
The national champion is clad in Big Orange!"
I would actually think he should do better then that if you take into account that Tennessee should only have a few schools who have more talent where Cincinnati and Western Michigan would have more schools who theoretically have a talent advantage or the gap was wider. Example is Tennessee is closer to South Carolina or Georgia and then Cincinnati was to Tennessee. I hope that makes sense but he shouldn't have to deal with as much talent gap as he did at other schools.
Remember though he only played 11 games in which he had more talent.
In reality, i would he thrilled with 7 wins before a bowl.
It is insanely way too early to judge if Jones is better than Dooley. I know it's fun to bash Dooley but how many of us were enthused when he first came on board after Kiffin (be honest, now)? I'm just preaching "let's be level headed". Jones has seemingly done quite well up to this point, but what he's accomplished doesn't (or shouldn't) project success in the future.
¡Viva La Revolución!
Twitter : @ecuamerican
thats very true im sure central michigan and cincinatti had some pay games that they played teams that were far better than they were at tennessee were right there competing with everyone i believe last year we lost not based on a talent difference but on a X's and O's difference and it seems to me that CBJ and staff can do well when it comes to that. Especially considering we have a coordinator that has actually been a d coordinator for awhile and were not just handing the reins over to someone thats never been a coordinator. I think CBJ will be like Urban Meyer he can win at small schools due to scheme with mediocre talent and then you bring his schemes up to play with more talent and boom people wont know what hit them
This post was edited by copeforvols1022 17 months ago
I think Cincinnati was closer to UT than most would like to think. We like to point out the "talent gap" when it works in our favor, but remember that team had Derek Wolfe, John Hughes, Isiah Pead, Z. Collaros, Legeaux, and Kenbrell Thompkins on it. That was a very talented team. UT had a talented roster but at that time they were all very young players. My point is that plenty of people criticized Jones for losing to Dooley and the other side liked to claim that the talent gap was huge but it really wasn't. Cincy was very talented that year and plenty of people expected them to win that game. IMO, Dooley was a much better coach than many UT fans like to give him credit for. It remains to be seen whether or not Jones is. You can throw every stat in the world out there re: how many times he's won with less talent, more talent, no talent, etc. It boils down to this: Can he navigate through the best conference in College Football history and win games? We won't know the answer until he puts a team on the field.
Personally, I was no where near "enthusiastic" when Dooley was hired. He had a losing record as head coach, and didn't show the drive and determination like CBJ has. That being said.....I am not saying he(CBJ) is gonna come out and be a 9+ game winner year one. But I fully feel statistically, it is undeniable that CBJ is a MUCH better coach. If DD had proved himself prior to coming here that he was a winner, the end result may have been different for him and our beloved Vols. So i would definitely have to disagree that it is insanely too early to tell. This is like comparing apples to oranges.....the two are exact opposites. If you are a winner, you're a winner. You find ways to win, and be successful. CBJ showed that at CMU, and Cincy. 95% of players he coached loved him as a coach, as a person, and as a mentor. They worked and played hard for him and both teams records show that very thing. What did LT show DD? The same thing that UT did. Losing records! I admired DD for his attempt at stepping into the big arena, but he was no where near ready for that type of position. Case in point.....Before the first game as HC for UT, CBJ has proven himself a winner and a better coach! Will he be uber successful here? Time will tell, and he has my FULL support!!!! GBO!!!!!!!
Statistically undeniable? I would be careful using such absolutes when describing your opinion. In Jones one shot head-to-head he got taken to the woodshed by Dooley. Now, I'm not saying that's a cut and dry answer to who the better coach is but I do think if Jones had taken this job three years ago he'd be coaching receivers for the Cowboys now too.
Jones won at Central Michigan beating the likes of Western Michigan and Kent State. His one signature win was over a 6-7 Mich. State team. At Cincy, he really didn't beat any great teams either. I don't see any huge upsets on his resume. Whether or not he can win at UT remains to be seen. You obviously think he can (and will) I'm not as confident but don't think that he cannot win. We'll see...
I agree as I pointed out if a few things had bounced the other way or not gotten broken DD would have a far different legacy at UT. That said I'm impressed with how CBJ has worked his and staffs tails off recruiting. If he keeps that up success has to follow.
Uh...yes....Statistically undeniable. Read my post again and you will see that is is referencing the winning history of both DD & CBJ. This is not a debate about what conference they won in, or how many big teams they beat, but the ability to coach a team with what talent you have and win. DD had a miserable record as HC at LT, and it followed him to UT, plain and simple. CBJ had winning records as HC at both CMU, and Cincy! You would be off your rocker to argue that statistic! The legacy DD left at LT was one littered with more L's in the winners column. CBJ's was more W's in that column at BOTH schools. So....common sense and statistics say, regardless of the conferences, CBJ coached competitively and won not just games, but Conference titles as a head coach. That makes CBJ on paper, a better coach the DD! End of subject!
Now......i copied and pasted this from my post that you are arguing: ( .....I am not saying he(CBJ) is gonna come out and be a 9+ game winner year one)
and this (Will he be uber successful here? Time will tell, and he has my FULL support!!!! GBO!!!!!!!) . So to rebuttle this that I copied and pasted from your reply (You obviously think he can (and will) I'm not as confident but don't think that he cannot win. We'll see... )....I will say just this. I never said anything that would lead you or anyone else to believe he will come out and beat everyone in his path! Yes he will win some, and will lose some. I also never said he will win conference titles in the SEC and get another National title. But do I think he will win here as HC at UT? ABSOLUTELY!
+1 for the "off your rocker" statement alone. Just a great phrase.
On paper? I prefer to make my decisions based on what happens on the field not "on paper." The argument over who the better coach is will be based on how many W's Jones can put after the season not before he has coached a game. Some UT fans are completely sold on his ability to win because he works hard and creates catchy phrases like "117". Plenty of coaches work hard and create catch phrases. I prefer wins on the field. Like I said, We'll see...
As I stated......prior to him coaching his first game at UT, he already "statistically" is a better coach. And again I will say, time will tell wether he will be as successful at UT as the other schools. Again I will say this, he will win here. Will it be an overnight ? Probably not, but it will happen. And BTW...I couldn't quote a single one of his catch phrases or otherwise. That means nothing to me. Production on the field is what matters. Winning at both other HC positions doesn't make him a shoe in here, but it is a far cry better odds that he will than won't.
Seeing that CBJ hasn't coached his first game in a top tier conference it's hard to compare with DD. BUT just by first impressions, HC resume, personality and body language, CBJ has a huge advantage over DD. Plus, he doesn't have the name to open doors like DD had / has... I, for one, didn't like DD's hiring from the git go. Nor did I like his brown shoes with orange pants, at least put on a pair of white Adidas for style points.
Just my take...
This post was edited by Colsha16 17 months ago
Remember, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics...your comparison of Dooley and CBJ leaves out one very critical fact - CBJ took over way better teams than Dooley inherited at La Tech. When CBJ took over from Kelly at CMU, he took over a 10-4 team from the previous season, and promptly went 8-6. At Cincinnatti, he took over a 12-1 team from Kelly and promptly went 4-8.. DD took over a 3-10 La Tech team.., so you arent comparing apples to apples. You are comparing apples to squash..
Im not saying DD is a better coach or a worse coach, im saying statistics in this circumstance can be very misleading. It remains to be seen how CBJ can perform in the shark tank that is the SEC..
Lol...ok....I completely agree to an extent. DD inherited a UT that was 7-6, and the next seasons at the helm speak for themselves. I am not bashing DD. I fully supported him during his tenure. As I stated in my original post, I am comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. As I stated twice.....on paper, statistically, CBJ is a better coach based on win/loss percentages. That's my point. Does not translate to anything regarding UT currently. The fact is, LT did Not improve much under DD, neither did UT. CMU did improve under CBJ, and Cincy after one season of struggles under CBJ picked it up and two consecutive winning seasons prior to his departure to the holy land. And for the 3rd and last time.....time will tell the story of wether or not CBJ will be as if not more successful at UT. I think the winning will continue here after getting settled in the Big Show known as the SEC. How long? Don't know, but think it will happen. JMHO
I was behind DD his entire tenure, but knew he was gone after the Vandy game..i liked him, and still do, but he just couldnt get out of second gear here. I dont know that he is a bad coach, but i dont know if he is a good one either. Given another opportunity, he might succeed.
And CBJ did continue the excellence that Kelly had going at both CMU and Cincy..does that mean he has a blueprint for success in the toughest football league this side of the NFL..? I dont know, and i dont think anyone else does either. I hope his past successes are a predictor of future accomplishments. Like you said though..time will tell.
First and foremost though, he needs elite talent. Best schemes in the world arent going to win in the SEC without it. So jobs 1, 2, 3 and 4 for him are to get on a level with Bama, UGA, UF, LSU in terms of recruiting. Obviously that's a tough ask in his first few months on the job, but it has to happen relatively quickly. Otherwise, you get further behind the talent pool of the elite teams, you dont win games, recruits dont want to come, and the vicious cycle starts all over.
I agree completely with your post. I feel a strong finish recruiting this year, and a 7+ win season next season will put CBJ & Staff in the drivers seat for the Elite Talent we need in 2014. Then we will be able to start the real judging. If we land the talent and don't win, then that will open up a whole new can of worms! +1 Frosty
+1 i couldnt agree more..and 7 wins is not going to be easy..
This post was edited by frostyvol 17 months ago
No it isn't. CBJ has 4 conference titles in 6 years as a head coach. Dooley's record at La Tech was nowhere near that good. Dooley was never even a coordinator before he was hired at LT. His record at UT was terrible. I feel pretty safe in saying CBJ has proven himself a better head coach than Dooley.
One of the biggest reasons people were so supportive of Dooley at the beginning was because he was a complete 180 from Kiffin, and fans did NOT want another "one and done" coach who pulled the stunts he did. In fact, I remember several people on VQ worrying that he'd jump to UGA at the first opportunity because of his father and the family's ties to that school. At the time, it wasn't about his prior record as much as it was about avoiding a repeat of the Kiffin tenure.
The big advantage that Jones has over Dooley is that he has won conference titles at CMU and UC. While neither conference is on the SECs level, he WAS beating schools with a comparable level of talent to his teams. When you put him in the SEC with SEC-caliber players, chances are he will perform better against the UGAs, Arkansas, etc than he did against Tennessee in 2011.
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