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I don't normally do this, but I thought you guys may want to go read this and then come back and discuss it. It's a link to Rocky Top Talk's Jay Brantner's overall comparison chart of the roster Jones will inherit vs. the one Dooley inherited. It sort of stemmed from a conversation we were having in a post and it blossomed into a really nice piece.
The bottom line is while Jay thinks the roster Dooley left Jones is a bit better than the one Kiffin left Dooley, his conclusion suggests it isn't significantly so. Anyway, some interesting data to decipher and something that I thought would be a good discussion point.
Weve heard for three years about the mess that Derek Dooley walked into in 2010. But how does it compare to the situation Butch Jones faces in 2013?
I believe the offensive line that CBJ inherited will be a major advantage. It will allow the running game to be a bigger part of the offense, lowering the pressure on a young quarterback and receiving corps. Also the switch back to the 4-3 should be a better fit for our current defensive personnel.
I disagree with so much in that eval that I'm upset I don't have time to really respond. Hopefully I can find time later tonight.
It's definitely a good article. I don't know that I totally agree with some of his conclusions on which starters are/were better. I think from a purely depth perspective, Jones has the upper hand. I think the Ws & Ls will come down to how the team is "coached up". And from that point, I give Jones an A+++, although he hasn't coached a game at UT yet, I have watched some of his videos on YouTube and the man brings it every day....very, very passioinate. He reminds me (in those terms) a lot of Bruce Pearl....we'll see
I've said it before, will say it again. CBJ no doubt inherits a better roster than CDD. But that's still no excuse for Dooley's yearly regression. His lack of major head coaching or coordinator experience was glaringly obvious especially in Year 3. Too talented of a team to lose 7 games this year.
Just my two cents, but this is a pretty poorly reasoned article.
1. Is there really an argument that the offense ledby Matt Simms, Poole, and the 2010 line is not markedly worse that the offense we have coming back next year? Seriously, is anybody betting that the offensive numbers are not significantly better next year than in 2010.?
2.The difference between having a full roster and a roster at I believe 65 is huge.
3. Look at the draft picks from what Dooley inherited vs what Butch is inheriting. Outside of Moore and Stocker, was anyone else drafted? Next year, the entire O-line, Neal (freak athlete), Sentimore, McCullers, Maggitt, Johnson are most likely getting drafted. Yet the position analysis expects us to believe that it is tied?
4. Brown, Hughes, and Myles were all kicked off, so not sure it makes much sense to include them.
To echo JCJ1986, no excuse for CDD being unable to turn talent into wins. But I don't think it does anyone any good to act like these are similar situations.
I agree with this. Jones definitely inheriting better situation however, I believe Jones is also a better coach.
our signing class -taking 25 ..plus how many can we back count to add to the 25?
the one thing thats got me on butch jones is he is a good proven coach..and coach up
2-3 stars and compete week in and out..something dooley couldnt do.
i think this signing class for jones is just as huge as 2014 also..i do have faith in this staff
and now i think they will sign a better class..then if dooley would have stayed.
and florida st..are saying they got a steal out sal.sun--lol..good luck with that fl.st..but might work out coaching linebackers only.
dooley coaching-jones coaching--jones is way ahead ..i still feel better about coach jones getting every thing out these players..and players will want to play hard for jones-unlike dooley...going to be interesting !!
I certainly hope you are right that this is a 'jumping of point for discussion'. Otherwise I would have to think it's agenda driven. I don't think it's close. Dooley was a bad coach but a very good recruiter and foundation builder. If he had been an average or below recruiter then Jones would be ready to shoot himself right about now or not taken the job at all. I ascribe more closely to bavw's point of view. Interesting discussion.
"Count it down with me. Five, four, three, two, one.
The national champion is clad in Big Orange!"
THIS. + what DCVOL said.
Lots of errors in this article.
1. Anywhere you mention a 2010 FR like Bray and Hunter and Rogers and J James etc you have to counter that with a player in the 2013 class like Ferguson, Harris, maybe North or Green or ?, Sanders, Carr etc etc.
The author is not comparing apples and apples
2. Key players have been in the program for 1-2 years vs in 2010 James, Fulton, Bray, Hunter, Stone, Rogers, etc etc were true FR. Now many backups are at least true sophs or RS sophs or JRs or SRs.
3. The statement " While Jones should have a slight advantage in year one, his year two challenge may be larger than Dooley's" is flat out wrong as in 2011 we had maybe 3-4 SEC "good" players total from the following classifications: RS SRs, SRs, RS JRs, JRs, and RS Sophs.......we had zero 3rd, 4th and 5th year players basically that Dooley had not recruited like Rivera and Malik.
Jones will have 3-4 times that many with ease from those classifications and this years 2013 class will be in the program a full year+ by the 2014 season.
There are mulitple things wrong with this article but the key thing is the author is not even considering the 2013 class but is the 2010 class so he is very non factual.
Good article and comparison. I think CBJ is coming into a better situation than Dooley. There is more experienced players, especially with the o-line. The one thing that scares me the most is our defense. How will it respond switching back to a 4-3 and will the scheme be better to put the players in the right positions to make plays. They're lots of variables in the defense that concerns me.
Now I will go position by position not using the 2010 class or the 2013 class....this gets scary when you are talking about the 2010 roster and backups not using Dooleys 1st class bc the author did use Jones 1st class (which he has much more time to recruit and sign and no NCAA shadow vs Dooley had):
Dooley inherited vs Jones inherited
QB: Only Simms vs Worley/Peterman.........not even close for JONES. Worley is a JR and Peterman is a RS FR both being in the program/ training and getting coached and Worley has played in mulitple SEC games and started
RB: Poole/ Oku/ Toney Williams vs Neal/ Lane/ Hill/ Watson/ DYoung/ Smith.....not even close for JONES. Poole was a 4th string RB in 2009 and Oku and Williams soon left the program. Neal or Lane is better than Poole (or at worst equal to Poole on his best day) now that Graham has been coaching them for a full year and we have all seen the improvement
OL: Dallas Thomas/ Schofield and Revis etc vs the best Oline maybe in the nation in 2013 and numerous backups like Kerbyson, Crowder, and Bullard etc that have been in the program for 1 full year or more......not even close for JONES. Dallas Thomas was the ONLY OLineman that panned out for Dooley when he walked in the door.
WRs: DMoore/ GJones/ ZRogers/ Teague* (who Dooley had to move CB bc we just didnt have ANY....a huge sacrifice that many dont give Teague credit for) vs Bowles, Pig, Carter, VDallas, and Blanc.......close but a slight advantage to JONES or at worst a draw bc 5 is greater than 3 and all 5 have been in the program for 1+ years and Bowles was RS'd in 2012 and was very highly recruited + Pig is our GJones now and VDallas showed he can contibute a ton and so can Blanc and Carter when needed for depth. Also we only had ZRogers returning in 2011 at WR.......we will have all the above for Jones for 2-3 more years.
TE: Stocker vs Croom/ Downs/ Meredith (will be healthy finally some think)....the author left off Meredith and Ben Barth was a FB not a TE til 2012. Advantage JONES as 3 is greater than 1 and all 3 have been in the program for 1-2+ years and Croom appears to have a very bright future and Downs has been a starter for 2 years. While Stocker was very good....we simply had only 1 TE inherited by Dooley vs 3 by Jones
I will do the defense later..........time for dinner.
Agree this is a good starting point for discussion. But many of the players listed under Dooley were complete unknowns when he came on board and to give the advantage to Dooley, the author appears to weigh how the players turned out to be. For a valid comparison, the rosters need to be evaluated much more objectively.
I also don't think you can include the incoming class for Dooley but not for Jones. At the very least, the anticipated early enrollees for Jones should be considered.
- QB: Dooley inherited Nick Stephens and signees Matt Sims and Tyler Bray. Zero experience except for Sims' Juco games. Jones has Worley who has SEC starting experience along with RS freshman Peteman and Ferguson. I'd argue that Jones has an extreme advantage for starters and an advantage for bench. To give advantage to Dooley is to take into consideration how good Bray ended up being.
- RB: Bryce Brown and 4th string Tauren Poole (who had almost zero experience) versus Neal, Lane, Young, and Watson. Without knowing that Poole ended up being a very decent SEC RB, I'd think the stable of RBs that Jones has inherited gives him the advantage for both starters and depth.
-CB: Art Evans and freshman Eric Gordon under Dooley versus Coleman and a senior Eric Gordon for Jones. Don't see how this can be considered a push as Gordon had not played a single snap when Dooley inherited the roster. For the record- I'm still pretty concerned about the CB position as it stands now.
I think Dooley's only advantages were at starting WR and starting TE. Everywhere else the roster that Jones inherited is an improvement. One of the biggest areas of advantages for Jones is the depth behind the 2 deep which is not really reflected in this comparison. An injury to a starter won't be nearly as devastating as it was for Dooley.
Can you imagine if Stocker went down in 2010?
Can you imagine if DThomas went down in 2010?
Can you imagine if JJackson went down in 2010?
Can you imagine if a DT like Hughes or Williams went down in 2010?
What if Poole went down in 2010?
If we lost either SR WR we were in major trouble with true FR Hunter and DRogers who didnt know much beyond a go route for Hunter and a jet sweep for Rogers.
Its not even close when you compare Jan 15th, 2010s roster and the roster right now.
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