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These teams are viewed as games we should have lost primarily because they beat us.
MSU, if we had won, would probably be unranked. They haven't played anyone else of note.
Florida, if we had won, would be a solid top 15 team after beating LSU.
Georgia, if we had won, would probably not be ranked.
So looking at them after we lost to them and saying how good they are is a little bit disingenuous. This early in the season, with such a small sample size, half the reason they are perceived as a good team is because they beat us. Florida is the exception because they did beat LSU.
That's a fair point. But my main point was that last night's game was a toss-up for UT at best. Since when is losing a toss-up game "unacceptable?" By definition, either team reasonably could win a toss-up game.
I'm not saying UT fans shouldn't be upset or disappointed. I'm mainly just saying that people who say this is an unacceptable loss because UT never should lose to Mississippi State, or anything absurd like that, are being a bit over-the-top and unrealistic.
This post was edited by Ryan Callahan 18 months ago
Staff writer for govols247 — http://www.twitter.com/RyanCallahan247 — firstname.lastname@example.org
That's fair. In and of itself one loss to that MSU team isn't unacceptable. It's just the fact that we seem to lose to every team with a pulse and that people are somehow rationalizing a loss to a team that honestly doesn't look like a superior team to us that I find unacceptable. Somewhere along the way it become accepted that we just beat the teams we're supposed to beat and lose to the ones we're supposed to lose to, and the longer it goes on the more teams we add to the latter list.
Teams with good coaches may occasionally lose to teams they shouldn't but they also beat teams they aren't expected to. Paul Rhodes does it every year. Tuberville did it yesterday. Fulmer did it @Florida in 2001 and at home vs Miami a few years later. Dooley seems incapable of beating anyone except for teams we can just bully around.
Everything you have posted is dead on don't back off of it. We should have beat that team no doubt. That msu team isn't that good I would say average at best. No real weapons on offense couple of solid corners on d but no big time d-lineman. We have fallen a long way. Tn should beat msu every year no matter what. Sorry its just the truth. They are top tier programs and middle then bottom msu is lower middle pack program. Tn should be a top tier. That's just the truth. We have more tradition than most any other program except bama.
Just watching that game, UT had the better athletes/players and should have won that game. That is the point Dooley and staff are not getting it done. MSU's big win was Auburn before last night and we all know just how good they are turning out to be. Dooley's record is what it is.
1-10 in the SEC doesn't cut it anywhere including at UK where they are going to fire Joker who has won just as many games as Dooley in the last 2 years in the conference.
Everybody agreed this was the year barring injuries that Dooley had to show something and he didin't have any excuses if he didn't. Well he hasn't and now people are trying to make excuses for him and that is unacceptable.
Big difference in your examples and this situation. I posted that if enough donors stop the flow of money, it can and will effect change, and that's true, even if those are rank and file donors, giving $1-5k annually. Enough little donors can effect change, but its hard for those who never give a dime to do so.
Political change is made by enough little guys who nonetheless each have a vote.
Market change is made by enough little guys who who buy products (within reason--Rolls Royce doesn't apply), which is still a "vote" of a sort within a market economy.
Angry message board posts or calls to sportstalk stations don't count as votes in whether a coach is fired, and if so, who is hired to replace him. In this game, all the little guys don't have "votes."
And last, I can't speak for others, but I certainly don't object to people being critical of Dooley, or even making a well-reasoned argument for a coaching change. Not at all. Forums should be, well, a "forum" for reasonable disagreements. My initial remark about "whining" wasn't directed at you, either, but was intended to be a general denouncement of posts which are rife with unconsidered emotion, anger, and the like.
For example: "Here are my arguments for why we should change coaches . . . " or "10 things the tape shows our defense did horribly last night" or "4 Poor calls I contend Dooley made" = NOT whining, even if I and others disagree with you.
What do I then consider whining? "We've slipped into terminal mediocrisy [sic]!" (My personal fave from another site); or
"I refuse to accept this," or "This is unacceptable," or the like, unless followed by a realistic, well reasoned plan of action that could conceivably work other than "Can the coach now and hire _______," without more. All too often, after reading a post like that, I find myself asking, "OK; so? What are you gonna do about it? I mean, other than taking to the internet and telling everybody how mad you are?"
Also, to be clear, I excuse people for cursing or angry rants in the midst of, or immediately after, a loss. That's knee jerk fan reaction and blowing off steam amongst other fans who should understand your frustration. It ain't pretty, but it's understandable, and I DON'T count that as "whining," either.
However, I used to post to a ton of negavols on another site every time a whining post appeared, the question: So what are you gonna do about it?
It's not just a smart-aleck question; it's a realistic and reasonable one; and there are only a few possibilities, chief among them:
-Contact the athletic director, maturely and calmly express my displeasure with the direction of the football program, and inform him I am cancelling my donation (if I donate);
-Be a disloyal but happy fan and just switch my allegiance to whatever team du jour is winning (you know, like the kids who in my day rooted for the Cowboys, then the Steelers, and then the 49ers, all three, as the NFL dynasties rotated power);
-Organize a protest, like one dude who is fan of my lifelong NFL team, the annually morbid Miami Dolphins (we've done better than expected so far this year), did to seek the firing of the GM, Jeff Ireland (he only got 10-15 people together, and therefore looked a bit dumb, but he did get media coverage, and a call from the owner, Stephen Ross, and again, he actually DID something);
-Keep rooting for the team through thick and thin, accepting that I won't likely have any say in whether the coach is fired, and if so, who is hired to replace him; or a person could do what most do:
-Nothing except expressing their anger on a daily basis on the internet.
"Bravely taking to his feet, he beat a very brave retreat." Sir Robin's Minstrels.
You're minimizing the process. Sure, the immediate relevance of message board discussion after the fact is pretty minimal. But in having these discussions you should be able to better understand your own views and why other people hold the ones they have. And ultimately, that should help you make a more informed decision about things that do matter, like buying season tickets or making a donation. Plus, we are social animals, and discussing things pertinent to our interests is just something we do. In the course of doing so we often make declarations(ie, "This is unacceptable"), especially about things we are passionate about.
Anyway, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you that berating each other on a message board isn't the most constructive use of our time. But neither is watching football, and in the end that's what this is all about.
I agree that we should have won that game.
But to keep saying that "Tn should beat msu every year no matter what" is just crazy man.
Programs go through rough patches, and then they spike for a while. Some programs spike for longer than others (Bama, Michigan, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Texas, Tennessee, USC, etc.). Others just have short spurts and then go right back into a down period (Arkansas, Auburn, Ole Miss, MISSISSIPPI STATE, etc.)
It just so happens that one of, if not the worse, down periods in UT history has happened at the same time Miss St. is peaking. It's football. It happens. That's just the nature of the beast. Am I accepting the loss and embracing mediocrity ? No. Am I accepting the facts ? Yes.
What about USCe ? We use to kick their teethe in quite often. What about now ? Seems like the culture has changed in Columbia. Granted, they are more proven than MSU. They've actually been tested this year. Well guess what, as of last night, so has MSU. We played UGA to the wire, and all but beat UF. And now, you can say that MSU played a resilient team with a talented offense and came out on top. Fact. Obviously, they don't suck too bad. That "solid" corner (Mr. Banks) is kind of a big deal. He.is.good. And he made a play on the ball in the 4th Quarter and helped MSU stretch the lead. We don't quite have a player like that on defense. A difference maker, you might call him. A play maker, you might say.
Also, how in the world are we as talented as MSU ? Have you watched our defense ? Yes we have some studs (AJ, Curt, McCullers), and some young upcoming players. But Curt is playing hurt and AJ is a step too slow to compensate for our lack of block shedding on the LOS. We have a good future at corner and safety (Coleman & McNeil), but Coleman has concussion like symptoms and McNeil just started his first game.
If our defense is on the field all game and giving up point, after point, after point, that nullifies our great offense. And the only, and I stress, the only advantage we had over MSU, was our offense. But our defense struggled mightily. So it didn't matter too much.
We could have won. But we didn't. This is not the same MSU team. They are not world beaters, as far as we know. but they are a very solid, and well rounded team. Fact.
This post was edited by DownTheField 18 months ago
1 Corinthians 16:13 Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
Oh come on. This defense is historically bad, and that's not primarily due to personnel. Our offensive line is head and shoulders better than theirs, Bray is a pro prospect while Tyler Russell is just a guy running a spread offense like 40 other guys in the country. Bumphis couldn't carry CP or Hunter's jock, and the rest of their receivers are mediocre. Their tailbacks and most of their defense aren't any better than league average. Aside from Banks and Slay and one linebacker whose name I am forgetting their roster is pretty mediocre for this league.
The difference is they have a system, on offense and defense, and they play well within it. That's called coaching, and that's why it's so maddening to watch us seem outclassed by a team that is not capable of dominating us physically.
If that roster is truly the standard to which Dooley is building toward for year four of his program then we really are doomed with him at the helm of the ship.
This post was edited by JPSke 18 months ago
Ok....you just blew my mind.
How is this defense (I'm assuming you're talking about the Tennessee defense ?) an historically bad defense ? Last year our defense was ranked in the top 30 in the nation (not necessarily up to par with our expectations, but much better, muuuuch better than this year's defense). And yes, our offensive line is head and shoulders better than their's. That's why I said, and I quote, "the only advantage we had over MSU, was our offense".
And if it's not personnel. what is it ? The scheme ? Because all I've heard for the past 24 hours is that, that excuse is not acceptable.
Also, yes, their offense does have some mediocre players in certain positions. But, those mediocre players are much better than our overall bad defensive play. Are they better straight up ? Skills vs skills ? I don't think so. But as a unit, emphatically, yes !
And as far as the standard for year four, just think about it. One more year in this scheme. AJ Johnson improving, getting faster. Curt Maggitt being healthy and improving. Justin Coleman with another year under his belt. McNeil with some reps and experience. If he comes back, McCullers getting stronger. This could be a scary defense next year. A beast on the line (McCullers), two beast at the second level (Maggit & AJ), Coleman on the outside, and McNeil and Randolph at the third level. Could be a beautiful thing to watch.
Who are you to state how these players and coaches feel about losing these tough games? I dont see their body language, quotes, press conferences, etc and think these guys dont care. That's certainly not the problem. These guys care and their busting their butts each game...yes, it hasnt been enough but they know that better than anybody.
You can question the players and coaches performances but I've never thought for once (this yr at least) that these guys accept this losing or that Dooley is satisfied with the effort. Hell, Dooley CLEARLY cares and wants to get over this hump as much as any of us.
That quote was in response to our QB calling the fans bandwagoners for being upset that we lost to MSU. My point was that we should be upset we lost that game, and if he thinks the fan reaction was somehow unwarranted then there are major problems with the standards he's been exposed to.
If he didn't believe it was unfair or wrong for the fans to be up in arms about that loss he never would have tweeted that. I'm trying to give the coaches and players the benefit of the doubt going forward because I support this University, but don't act like I pulled it out of thin air.
Players often expect fans to support them all the time and, although they appreciate fans' passion, don't always understand why fans respond the way they do in the face of adversity. It's just how players are wired. Players try to rally together when things aren't going well and do something about it. Fans voice their displeasure and, especially in today's social-media age, let players and coaches know about it.
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