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Rocklion, if you look at the numbers & you're ok with them... Then that's your call. (but I would still say you're thinking like a fan & not being objective; and it's important for fans to know about graduation rates... Gives a different perspective when you're watching a game and see career ending / life altering injuries.)
As for being a troll... If bringing up graduation rates is trolling, then fans need to pay a little more attention to recruits as people & less as athletes.
This kind of thinking is why you have been in the position you have been in over the past century. Do you think Alabama cares if you graduate with an Alabama degree? do you think Florida cares? LSU? Georgia? The best players at these schools leave early for the NFL every year. It's how you get the best players in your system to win sooner.
I would agree that the perfect system would be great athletes as well as great students who care about finishing their degree, but these recruits are truly one in a thousand. Funny part about these recruits, is that they still end up at the Bamas and USCs of the world because they recognize how much money there is to gain in the NFL if they manage their money right. Vandy will never be able to compete for a SEC championship until they realize this and get dirty with recruiting. (They already have realized this with players like Brian Kimbrow). You have to take risks at first to get your program established. But you have to take a lot of risks. Vandy hasn't taken enough yet to be talented enough to make a real run at an Eastern division title.
Butch Jones. Who???
You aren't a troll. Appreciate the civil debate. I find some of your points very intriguing. The rest? We may have to agree to disagree :)
Thanks for the thoughtful response Memphischic. I would never suggest that anyone can't obtain a great education at any school... But what I'm bringing up is the experience of black male football & basketball players. I've spent a good bit of time through various affiliations at multiple sec schools. And honestly VU is the only one where athletes consistently receive an education (& graduate). Not that other schools don't have some of their athletes attending classes and graduating. But many are just working around the academic requirements. It's an inconvenience to their sports schedule. That is consistent with the mindset of the programs. That view is rare at vu.
As for the vu player twitter responses; I'm guessing they will all be scolded by morning. Hopefully a life lesson learned. Probably sounding old, but all public social media postings should be at least cordial if not professional. (unrealistic hope I realize)
Good insight. Thanks
You are probably right resurgent vol. I'm trying to "work from within" (I'm a Uf alum & faculty member... I'm that angry professor writing editorials about needing to focus on our mission as a university instead of the construction of new athlete only penthouse dorms.)
You are also correct about administrators & coaches not caring about graduating their players. They won't unless there is a penalty... Or if fans actually care. The NCAA is making some progress on the former; getting the word out to fanbases may help on the latter.
Well I mean we're talking about 'Bama fans making educated decisions...
But in all seriousness, I agree that the current system is a little screwy. Universities should support their athletes regardless, but more emphasis should be placed on the student aspect in terms of rewards and penalties. Good luck to you in your efforts, btw!
Funny that you call someone out for "hiding safely behind this board" while doing the exact same thing. What happened to Vanderbilt being an educational institution of integrity and prestige? Ever since Franklin took over the football program, it's become the 4Chan of the SEC...
This post was edited by tntoak 15 months ago
First of all, neither the state of Tennessee nor the University of Tennessee "pours money" into the athletic programs at Tennessee. In fact, the AD has been funding academics at the University to the tune of $7 million a year. So your entire first paragraph isn't even relevant (or accurate) in the discussion here. Furthermore, the very study you attempt to cite as proof of Vanderbilt's superiority actually proves the opposite. When it comes to graduation rates between athletes and non-athletes who are black males, Vanderbilt actually does a worse job than Tennessee (pg. 14):
School: Athletes - Non-Athletes - difference
University of Tennessee 48 45 +3
Vanderbilt University 74 80 -6
Since you seem to want to make this about academics versus athletics, why don't you address why Vanderbilt is doing a worse job with its athletes than with its student body as a whole? This isn't about overall graduation rates, this is about why athletes at Vanderbilt seem to have a harder time than non-athletes when it comes to graduating. Does Vanderbilt not invest as much into academic resources as Tennessee? If so, then how can you argue with a straight face that Vanderbilt is actually putting academics over athletics?
But going back to the original topic of this thread (not what you hijacked it for), Franklin hasn't done squat to any players for talking smack on Twitter yet, why would he suddenly start now? These tweets and reactions are emblematic of the type of program and atmosphere Franklin is building in Nashville, and it makes the 2012 USC team look mild in comparison. This demonstrates a total lack of class from current players and recruits alike, and that type of behavior shouldn't be supported by any fanbase.
This is exactly what I expect from Vandy players. I am fortunate to live far away from most Vandy alumni because those I know are self-righteous hypocrites. James Franklin fosters this type of behavior.
The OP from Candybuilt needs to do a little research on funding before he/she spouts off. UTAD has funded academics in Knoxville for decades, not the other way around.
Its not a stupid question until you ask it.
Labradore, you are leaving out a big factor and that is traditionally Vandy recruits athletes that are more likely to go pro in something other than sports. They tend to be more realistic from the start in terms of their future, mostly because they weren't even in the top 50 players in their state and some weren't even the best on their own team. How many players have left Vandy for professional glory after their Junior year or before their eligibility is exhausted? UT probably had more early entrants in the draft this year than Vandy has had in the last 10. The kids, irrespective of race, attend schools like Florida, UT, GA, Bama, etc. to refine their talent and get to the next level. Traditionally Vandy didn't get these kids. You are right. There is a mind set that matters in this discussion but its the mind set, talent level and focus of the kids.
This post has been edited 4 times, most recently by DCVolunteer 15 months ago
"Count it down with me. Five, four, three, two, one.
The national champion is clad in Big Orange!"
tntoak bringing the heat from the icy north! +1 for a great post correcting the typical Vanderbilt misstatements about Tennessee athletics.
I'm impressed with Franklin, I just don't like him. I did have a soft spot for Vandy before he got there. At the end of the day, I find him irritating.
The problem with that statistic is the selection bias. Did you notice that all of the programs that graduated the highest % of black student athletes were very good academic institution. I would argue it's because they recruit and enroll better students. The Nu'Keese Richardsons of the world weren't going to make it anywhere, and the Zac Stacys would probably make it everywhere. To have a meaningful stat, you'd have to enroll a control group of very similar sudents into every university and compare how may get degrees.
Bottom line: I think your statistic says more about the student athletes than the school.
That's why I took it as arrogant when you say a kid who goes elsewhere "has been had". They haven't necessarily been had. They aren't throwing away their future by going to another university. The graduation rate may be lower there because there are other individuals who don't take school seriously and never have, but any given kid can to go a state school and be very successful.
"When we step on that football field, everyone flips a switch. And it's on..." - Butch Jones
Let's see how Vanderbilt's black athlete graduation rates trend with the people Franklin is getting into school.
About academic quality: small private schools lack the resources to afford non-selective admissions. So slots are scarce and the price is high. The result is an inflated impression of quality, and these schools trade on that reputation.
I used to accept the VU academic hype until, as a Tennessee senior, I compared curricula with a Vandy counterpart at a conference. We were both surprised that I had to satisfy a much more rigorous and varied program than he did. After that I quit buying VU's academic chin music.
If Tennessee wants to be considered a Top 25 public university, all it has to do is double the price and put three-fourths of its applicants on a wait list. The reputation would go through the roof.
That's a fair description of your thoughts on Franklin Denver.
I always feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle on trying to encourage people to have higher expectations of their state universities. If you honestly read the graduation rate numbers and conclude that it's evidence for ut, miss state, auburn, etc doing things the right way (& that there is not a problem), then I'm unlikely to convince you otherwise. Thanks for looking at the numbers though; at least you'll be eyes wide open when cheering on saturdays in the fall. Anyone who thinks aspiring to higher graduation rates for black athletes is elitist (or that it can't be achieved), I'm probably not going to convince otherwise... But again, thanks for listening to the argument.
I don't think cheering for more kids to get degrees is elitist, I think that it's misguided to assume a kid has a lesser chance of graduating if he goes to a state school. I think the statistics are dragged down at less selective schools by kids who are less intelligent and less motivated...that is to say, those kids that wouldn't be accepted into Vandy or the other schools at the top of that list. In other words, the likelihood of graduating is probably largely determined long before a kid decides where to go to college, and is not really based on the particular school he goes to.
I mean, if a student athlete cuts class, and parties, and flunks out at UT, wouldn't that same thing happen at Vandy? I think so. I think the stats look good for Vandy because they enroll fewer kids who choose to screw off.
Also, that study comes from the Bobby Johnson era, and I think you'll likely see the character and academic profile of Vandy players change significantly under Franklin. Johnson was a humble, classy guy who went and got similar players (Cutler not included). Franklin is vastly different, in my opinion. I think these tweets show the beginnings of that trend.
This post was edited by Denver Vol 15 months ago
Charter, to address your post and several other posters, I'll try to put out a few important points. For the most part, all scholols, community college through ivy league, use similar books, materials, etc. But some schools put their resources in different places. Princeton, Yale, Vanderbilt, and several others address 100% of a student's financial need. Their graduates are debt free. And statistically, their students are much more likely to graduate in 4 years. Most parents don't know these points. It's for these reasons, I encourage every highschool student to apply to a wide variety of schools and see what options are available. It's often much different than they were expecting.
As for several posters withe misconception that major conference sports are profitable for the academic missions of a university... This is an accounting myth used by people who demand that the only part of the university that is "elite" is the football team. The only sports programs that run in the black are ones that consistently compete for national championships. Bama is profitable now; in it's down years it ran in the red (but no one talks about that... Buyouts must be paid & facilities improved to catch up with the rest of the sec). Over time with the cycles of winning and losing, sports sap resources from a universities academic mission. Every UT grad could graduate debt free if the haslams would donate to need based aid... But they'll contribute to stadium upgrades instead. Not sure I will ever get enough people to remember why we have our state university systems and what makes them great & important (the answer isn't football)... But I will continue to try. Thanks for your thoughts and consideration. As a taxpayer, demand more from our universities; insist that resources are allocated appropriately. Demand excellence both on and off the field.
I'm just stunned that the fans have adopted his demeanor as well. They are uniformly defending the players' actions by talking about Ford decommitting so late in the game, etc. They can't seem to admit that it isn't a player's place to do that on twitter, and they can't understand that Ford got a lot of late offers that changed his situation quite a bit.
It just reveals how new they are to all of this. This is how recruiting goes. You can't get wound up over every decommitment, and you definitely can't take it out on the players. He's an 18 year old kid who just had a number of much better football offers fall in his lap. You can't blame him for reevaluating.
The fans are becoming irrational jerks just like Franklin and his team.
What pisses me off about this, is that the Vandy people here are taking this kid as a statistic.This kid is a real person not a number, and if he wants to succeed in school then he will, no matter where he goes. I had the option to go to Emory, Rhodes, or Boston University, but I didn't because I actually LOVE Tennessee, and I have received amazing undergraduate and graduate degrees. By quoting these statistics its almost like you are assuming the kid is going to fail out of school, without actually factoring in his work ethic or academic goals at all. Maybe he enjoys Auburn or Tennessee more and would receive just as wonderful of an educational experience here as he would at Vandy. Please don't come in arbitrarily quoting statistics anymore...its silly
Denver,If you end up being correct about Franklin, I should clearly eat my words. But as someone that follows franklin closely, it's highly likely that he will maintain bobby johnson's grad rates. I'm demanding for muschamp to do the same. I hope you ask the same of butch.
You make it sound like athletes go to school and make most of their own choices... Nothing could be further from the truth. They're plugged into a system that encourages or disregards academics and off the field incidents. Here in Gainesville, we've averaged not quite 1 arrest per month during urban & muschamp's reign. If vu did that I wouldn't cheer for them... And I won't cheer for Uf, regardless of their on field success. Cheer for Vanderbilt for running a clean program (& while I didn't like some of the tweets from vu players yesterday either, please don't compare them to 50+ arrests at Uf)
sounds like you watch "Finding Nemo"... they call a boat a butt
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