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SEC Solidarity Makes No Sense

  • Denver Vol said...

    Thanks for laying out a logical rationale and not just insisting again on the opinion.

    I think it may raise the profile of the conference, but my point is that we're in an era of ultra-performance from an unprecedented number of teams in this conference. Never before has Florida, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, Miss. St., Texas A&M, etc. all been so good at once.

    Again, I don't want the league to go to crap, but as long as all of those teams continue pulverizing everyone, we get penalized and not helped for it.

    To prove your point, I need someone to show me very good to elite recruits that signed with Tennessee because other teams in the SEC have been very successful. It's the only way to prove the point, because I can sit here all day and show you example of recruits we have lost to other SEC teams because they have been very successful, therefore proving my point.

    What you don't understand is ELITE RECRUITS DONT SIGN WITH CRAPPY TEAMS! We have been horrible for 3 years. Who wants to play here? Who wanted to play for Dooley? Nobody. 4 and 5 stars didn't want to play for Doolander he was inept...

    And somebody else made the great point that Even if a team loses once in the SEC that means nothing. You can't say that about other conferences. Look at Oregon and KSU. Both lost once and then look at Bama. They made it over the other 2 because we play in the SEC.

    hdrizzle21

  • SWVolfan said...

    The biggest things that have hurt TN were a bad hire with Kiffin in retrospect because of the one and done and the hiring of Coach Dooley. The program has also not had a lot of luck with injuries over the past few years as well. In the past TN has been pretty damn good while Florida and or Bama have been successful. Back then it was going back and forth on who was better between us and them. And we were included in that. Other SEC teams don't have to fall for us to be successful. A well coached and recruited program in conjunction with our heritage and infrastructure should bring us back to the top!

    Agree 100%. We are a victim of a lot of other circumstances. I'm just saying, those being what they are, wouldn't we be better off if the rest of the league weren't so darn fierce right now.

    I also agree that regardless of what the rest of the league does, we will get better over the next three or four years. We are starting to clean up a lot of the mess that has help us back for a while, and things should improve.

    "People think I'm the greatest damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything I know" -Bear Bryant

    Denver Vol

  • allvolrog said...

    The SEC is the king and definitely helps all the teams in the league. Where do you find one loss SEC teams in the rankings? Ahead of all other one loss teams. Tennesee needs to win football games in order for the strength of schedule to help us. The lack of strength in the SEC may be revealed in the NCAA basketball field this year. It is best for all the teams in the conference to be in the strongest conference. We have not been able to enjoy these benefite because we have under achieved in our conference. Gooooo Bama.

    I disagree. Conference dominance does not help ALL teams in the league. It helps the BEST teams in the leagues. The one-loss SEC football teams will be ranked ahead of other one-loss teams, but UT will still be sitting at home during bowl season. A strong conference RPI helps those that have good enough records already, but the bottom half of the good leagues will be out of the tournament just like the average teams from average conferences.

    As Denver Vol has said, I care about TENNESSEE winning. I don't give two sh-ts about Bama and I want to see them lose. I want to BEAT Alabama. I want to BEAT Florida. I don't want to have to fall back on their success to sustain my pride. I like it when the SEC is dominant, but I like it a heck of a lot more when UT is winning games and our rivals are not.

    Go Irish.

    smasher423 ●

  • hdrizzle21 said...

    What you don't understand is ELITE RECRUITS DONT SIGN WITH CRAPPY TEAMS! We have been horrible for 3 years. Who wants to play here? Who wanted to play for Dooley? Nobody. 4 and 5 stars didn't want to play for Doolander he was inept...

    And somebody else made the great point that Even if a team loses once in the SEC that means nothing. You can't say that about other conferences. Look at Oregon and KSU. Both lost once and then look at Bama. They made it over the other 2 because we play in the SEC.

    I agree. And you're making my point in the first paragraph. Players don't sign with crappy teams, and perhaps we wouldn't be perceived as such a crappy team if we didn't have to play the world's worst death-gauntlet in the history of football, and then recruit against those teams.

    The second paragraph isn't really on topic. Bama does get some benefit in rankings because of their schedule, but again, how does that help us? It helps Bama, but it doesn't help us at all. I'm not happy for them because they get to play for another title.

    "People think I'm the greatest damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything I know" -Bear Bryant

    Denver Vol

  • memphischic said...

    Wanting the SEC to beat non- SEC teams does not mean I'm content with Tennessee staying at home with a 5-7 record. Alabama is not going to be any less competitive next year if they lose to Notre Dame. If anything, it gives the best coach in college football more motivation the following year and a recruiting pitch to uber prospects that they are the missing link to winning the next championship.

    Rather, the dominance of the SEC forces the hands of all those associated with the program; AD, Chancellor, BoT, boosters, etc to committ to getting UT back on top. one example - We don't pull out all the stops in the new state- of- the- art training facility if we didn't feel the pressure to stay competitive. That facility is touted as being one of best in the nation - both college and the NFL- and definitely going to be a factor in recruiting.

    That's the best argument I've heard for your point of view yet. Interesting take.

    "People think I'm the greatest damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything I know" -Bear Bryant

    Denver Vol

  • Any recruit that picks us over an ACC team (UNC, Clemson, VA, etc...) is an example of us benefiting from SEC dominance. In terms of current recruits, think about Marquez North (sp?). Also, wasn't Hunter picking between us and UVA?

    Also, has any other team put up Top 25 recruiting numbers with our record over the last 3 years? History and facilities help, but SEC dominance is the biggest boost IMO.

    Also, Bama losing will not make any recruit think less of them at all.

    bavw

  • Denver Vol said...

    That's the best argument I've heard for your point of view yet. Interesting take.

    Good topic and discussion - glad you brought it up. And really glad it's remained this civil :)

    memphischic

  • SWVolfan said...

    I think you will notice that I got a strong post going last night on this subject.

    However, I would like to respond directly to your postings on this subject. There are only two ways that your argument makes sense:
    1. Because Bama wins they get to sign as many players as they want.
    2. Because Bama wins there are only 25 good prospects available and the rest aren't worth having.

    There are 4 or 5 teams in this conference that have great recruiting pull because of a history of winning and geographical advantage. The SEC is a powerful pull for the rest of the programs to attract attention from national recruits. I would then argue that our heritage and the quality of our campus and infrastructure gives us a tremendous advantage over the remainder of the teams in the SEC. So yes, I do believe that there is value in other SEC teams in general and Bama specifically doing well against non-conference competition.

    The sloppy seconds theory of recruiting. No self respect.

    Chartervol ●

  • bavw said...

    Any recruit that picks us over an ACC team (UNC, Clemson, VA, etc...) is an example of us benefiting from SEC dominance. In terms of current recruits, think about Marquez North (sp?). Also, wasn't Hunter picking between us and UVA?

    Also, has any other team put up Top 25 recruiting numbers with our record over the last 3 years? History and facilities help, but SEC dominance is the biggest boost IMO.

    Also, Bama losing will not make any recruit think less of them at all.

    Not unless the reason they pick us is because the SEC is a hyper-competitive league. Is that why Marquez North is choosing us? If so, wouldn't he have kept calling us his leader when the coaching staff got fired? Doesn't that indicate that the coaches had more to do with his interest than purely being in the SEC? As soon as they got fired he moved us down his list.

    "People think I'm the greatest damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything I know" -Bear Bryant

    Denver Vol

  • Denver Vol said...

    Thanks for laying out a logical rationale and not just insisting again on the opinion.

    I think it may raise the profile of the conference, but my point is that we're in an era of ultra-performance from an unprecedented number of teams in this conference. Never before has Florida, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, Miss. St., Texas A&M, etc. all been so good at once.

    Again, I don't want the league to go to crap, but as long as all of those teams continue pulverizing everyone, we get penalized and not helped for it.

    To prove your point, I need someone to show me very good to elite recruits that signed with Tennessee because other teams in the SEC have been very successful. It's the only way to prove the point, because I can sit here all day and show you example of recruits we have lost to other SEC teams because they have been very successful, therefore proving my point.

    I would cede your point if we'd had an above average to average on the field and recruiting coach lately. But as you well know we haven't. We've also had really bad luck with key injuries and players who've had to be kicked off the team.

    I believe we now have a coach who has succeeded at every level he's coached. With this staff and our history and facilities we should begin to close that gap. I will grant you that it will be tougher with the success of the conference lately. However, I believe it will happen.

    This post was edited by SWVolfan on 12/20/2012 at 3:27 PM

    SWVolfan

  • SWVolfan said...

    I would cede your point if we had had an above average to average on the field and recruiting coach lately. But as you well know we haven't. We have also had really bad luck with key injuries and players who have had to be kicked off them team.

    I believe that we now have a coach who has succeeded at every level he has coached. With this staff and our history and facilities we should begin to close that gap. I will grant you that it will be tougher with the success of the conference lately. However, I believe it will happen.

    So what you're saying is that we've been helped in recruiting by SEC dominance, only it hasn't produced tangible recruiting results because our coach was bad a recruiting?

    My issue with that is this: our coach being who he was, wouldn't he have been able to win more recruiting battles if our competitors had not been so successful over the last 6 years?

    "People think I'm the greatest damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything I know" -Bear Bryant

    Denver Vol

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    Chartervol ●

  • If it were Georgia and not Alabama in the National Championship game I'd pull for the SEC.

    I think the strength of the SEC helps us in recruiting however I think it helps the top teams more. Which are the teams we have to actually play year end and year out. I mean, UT has to compete with Bama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina every year! All with better home state recruiting. Not to mention LSU, Arkansas, Auburn, Texas A&M being on the rotation schedule.

    Texas A&M might be the next great team in the SEC. I think the 'SEC' affiliation along with fertile Texas recruiting grounds will help them probably the most of any team in the SEC.

    Having said all of that.....

    Go Irish!

    ncvolsalum

  • Denver Vol said...

    So what you're saying is that we've been helped in recruiting by SEC dominance, only it hasn't produced tangible recruiting results because our coach was bad a recruiting?

    My issue with that is this: our coach being who he was, wouldn't he have been able to win more recruiting battles if our competitors had not been so successful over the last 6 years?

    You are placing way to much importance on the effect that Bama losing the bowl game will have on our recruiting. That may or may not have an impact on Von Bell.

    Many of Fulmer recruits over his past few years were busts. The class that Kiffin recruited looked good on paper but the results were that it was one of the worst classes in the nation in the long run. On the surface Dooley did a decent job with recruiting at best. However, we lost so many key players due to injuries and off the field issues that it became absurd. On top of that I believe Dooley was probably the worst on the field coach we've had in 40-45 years. This lead to the bad win loss records of the past years more than the quality of the rest of the conference. We weren't bad because the rest of the conference was good. We were bad because the A/D and coaches didn't manage the program to the high level that we had become accustomed to.

    I think having Von Bell on campus for the last visit of the year with the new staff will be much more important to our efforts than Bama winning or losing.

    SWVolfan

  • hdrizzle21 said...

    I think that's just Nick Saban. As long as he's there they will be good. He's a once in a generation type coach. Best college football coach since I've been alive.

    Bingo, Saban in college football is like Calipari at Kentucky as long as they are there they will come simple logic

    rollo41

  • SWVolfan said...

    You are placing way to much importance on the effect that Bama losing the bowl game will have on our recruiting. That may or may not have an impact on Von Bell.

    Many of Fulmer recruits over his past few years were busts. The class that Kiffin recruited looked good on paper but the results were that it was one of the worst classes in the nation in the long run. On the surface Dooley did a decent job with recruiting at best. However, we lost so many key players due to injuries and off the field issues that it became absurd. On top of that I believe Dooley was probably the worst on the field coach we've had in 40-45 years. This lead to the bad win loss records of the past years more than the quality of the rest of the conference. We weren't bad because the rest of the conference was good. We were bad because the A/D and coaches didn't manage the program to the high level that we had become accustomed to.

    I think having Von Bell on campus for the last visit of the year with the new staff will be much more important to our efforts than Bama winning or losing.

    I'm not saying that Bama losing this one game will be the difference in us getting any particular recruit.

    I'm saying that, for the reasons I've enumerated, it seems logical that less success from Bama, Georgia, et. al. would generally bode well for our recruiting.

    "People think I'm the greatest damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything I know" -Bear Bryant

    Denver Vol

  • Denver Vol said...

    I'm not saying that Bama losing this one game will be the difference in us getting any particular recruit.

    I'm saying that, for the reasons I've enumerated, it seems logical that less success from Bama, Georgia, et. al. would generally bode well for our recruiting.

    I would agree with that perhaps on a regional level. I'm just afraid that an overall weakening of the SEC brand would hurt us on a national level. To me because of our demographic issues it is more important to us to be able to recruit nationally than it is for the GA, FL, LA and AL teams. That's why we seem to spend more on recruiting than other SEC teams do.

    That's about as simple as I can state it. I will leave it there. Thanks for the excellent debate.

    SWVolfan

  • I want the SEC to win the national championship every year so I am not looking at it as Notre Dame vs Alabama. Does it help Tennessee this year with recruiting if Alabama wins? Not directly. But beating the defending champions the following year can do wonders for your program. Johnny Manziel catapulted into Heisman front runner after beating Alabama.

    Also, in 2013 at least 1/2 of the top ten recruiting classes will be from the SEC. Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, etc will be just as competitive no matter the outcome in the national title game and maybe even more so given the increasing trend of signing early enrollees. Tennessee has to take care of Tennessee to get on a level playing field.

    So why pull for the SEC when the words "Roll Tide" make me choke? Because I'm assuming TN is on the verge of being back and will soon benefit in a more direct fashion of the strong brand that is the SEC. A brand whose foundation is winning. A nationally perceived SEC dominance benefits SEC teams in so many ways. If there was more parity amongst the conferences then 1/2 of ESPN Gamedays this year would not have been at SEC venues, a one loss SEC team would be on the same footing as a one loss team from any other conference, etc. It's up to Tennessee to become relevant enough to will reap more benefits of the SEC brand

    memphischic

  • SWVolfan said...

    I would agree with that perhaps on a regional level. I'm just afraid that an overall weakening of the SEC brand would hurt us on a national level. To me because of our demographic issues it is more important to us to be able to recruit nationally than it is for the GA, FL, LA and AL teams. That's why we seem to spend more on recruiting than other SEC teams do.

    That's about as simple as I can state it. I will leave it there. Thanks for the excellent debate.

    The SEC isn't getting weak anytime soon. The SEC is where coaches get paid more. The SEC will continue to dominate as long as that holds true. Tennessee hasn't been landing the talent because they got cheap with the last coaching hire.... They paid a little more this time.... You will see some better results in the not so long future, but it will be because CBJ is bringing the talent in... Not because the SEC as a whole is a powerhouse....

    signature image signature image signature image

    Go Vols

    orangeasylum ●

  • Denver Vol said...

    Name a recruit that came to UT because Alabama has been dominant.

    That would take awhile cause we have what 85 scholarship players and frankly I don't know them all but seriously your asking what? Name players that chose us over Bama? Off the top my head CP Darrick Hunter Richardson M. Jackson Stone Maggit AJ Johnson McNeal basically I'd guess almost all our big time recruits had offers or were looked at by Saban. I'm not sure really what your getting at. I'll ask this are you trying to say we don't have a player on our team that Bama wanted? If so I think you are selling our kids short.

    Puddin Gooden

  • Puddin Gooden said...

    That would take awhile cause we have what 85 scholarship players and frankly I don't know them all but seriously your asking what? Name players that chose us over Bama? Off the top my head CP Darrick Hunter Richardson M. Jackson Stone Maggit AJ Johnson McNeal basically I'd guess almost all our big time recruits had offers or were looked at by Saban. I'm not sure really what your getting at. I'll ask this are you trying to say we don't have a player on our team that Bama wanted? If so I think you are selling our kids short.

    I don't think that was really his point. I think what he is saying is that a lot of people are arguing that they are rooting for Bama in the title game because that will help UT in recruiting. He is saying that the players we have on our roster didn't pick UT because of our association with Bama and how good they are.

    Yes, a strong SEC will make some athletes attracted to UT, but does Bama need to beat Notre Dame for the SEC to be strong? Not at all. The SEC is a lot more than Bama. If Bama wasn't in the title game, it would be Florida, and if not them it would be Georgia, and if not them it would be LSU, etc. etc. Players aren't going to choose UT because Bama won the championship and since we are in the same conference as Bama they want to come play at UT.

    For me, I want the SEC to be strong. But I hate Bama. And UT's future success doesn't depend on Bama's current success. It depends on what Butch Jones, Dave Hart, and those players do to make it successful. Therefore, I want Bama to get absolutely embarrassed on January 7. And then I want Butch to go pitch TENNESSEE to recruits, not the SEC.

    smasher423 ●

  • smasher423 said...

    I don't think that was really his point. I think what he is saying is that a lot of people are arguing that they are rooting for Bama in the title game because that will help UT in recruiting. He is saying that the players we have on our roster didn't pick UT because of our association with Bama and how good they are.

    Yes, a strong SEC will make some athletes attracted to UT, but does Bama need to beat Notre Dame for the SEC to be strong? Not at all. The SEC is a lot more than Bama. If Bama wasn't in the title game, it would be Florida, and if not them it would be Georgia, and if not them it would be LSU, etc. etc. Players aren't going to choose UT because Bama won the championship and since we are in the same conference as Bama they want to come play at UT.

    For me, I want the SEC to be strong. But I hate Bama. And UT's future success doesn't depend on Bama's current success. It depends on what Butch Jones, Dave Hart, and those players do to make it successful. Therefore, I want Bama to get absolutely embarrassed on January 7. And then I want Butch to go pitch TENNESSEE to recruits, not the SEC.

    Puddin, this is what I meant. He said it better than I did.

    "People think I'm the greatest damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything I know" -Bear Bryant

    Denver Vol

  • memphischic said...

    I want the SEC to win the national championship every year so I am not looking at it as Notre Dame vs Alabama. Does it help Tennessee this year with recruiting if Alabama wins? Not directly. But beating the defending champions the following year can do wonders for your program. Johnny Manziel catapulted into Heisman front runner after beating Alabama.

    Also, in 2013 at least 1/2 of the top ten recruiting classes will be from the SEC. Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, etc will be just as competitive no matter the outcome in the national title game and maybe even more so given the increasing trend of signing early enrollees. Tennessee has to take care of Tennessee to get on a level playing field.

    So why pull for the SEC when the words "Roll Tide" make me choke? Because I'm assuming TN is on the verge of being back and will soon benefit in a more direct fashion of the strong brand that is the SEC. A brand whose foundation is winning. A nationally perceived SEC dominance benefits SEC teams in so many ways. If there was more parity amongst the conferences then 1/2 of ESPN Gamedays this year would not have been at SEC venues, a one loss SEC team would be on the same footing as a one loss team from any other conference, etc. It's up to Tennessee to become relevant enough to will reap more benefits of the SEC brand

    memphischic is bringing the heat tonight! Great points on both posts and +1 for each. For the record, I'm not pulling for the tide or the gators. BUT, if every SEC team in a bowl game this year loses, does that hurt recruiting for the conference. How about if every team wins? Does that help recruiting for the conference? Bottom line, SEC IS the best football conference in the Nation. How they fare against other conferences does affect recruiting for every team in the conference.

    BUTCH IS NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART. GO VOLS!

    OrangeNCarolina ●

  • Denver Vol said...

    Puddin, this is what I meant. He said it better than I did.

    Got ya and agree totally with that.

    Puddin Gooden

  • volfan28 said...

    I think the SEC dominance helps Tennessee more than other SEC programs becuase we recruit more players who are in Big Ten territory. But I think we lose more players each year to Alabama and more games each year to Alabama because of their dynasty.. so I want the dynasty to end. If we lose a player to Michigan or Ohio State.. that doesn't impact our success as much as losing a player to Alabama or Florida.

    Go Irish.

    plus 1+ volfan28 spoton...in noway would i pull for bama to beat the irsh

    vols4life1969

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